Prudie would like to take this opportunity to state that oral sex is sex. There is some kind of new-age thinking among kids that oral sex is not sex. This is like saying that shoplifting isn't stealing because you're not robbing a bank.I used to know someone with that opinion...
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19 comments:
Which opinion? That oral sex isn't sex, that oral sex is sex, or that shoplifting isn't stealing?
I agree that it is sex. But (b/c I like to play devil's advocate) I guess it could depend on how you define sex. Intimacy & sex can be two totally different things. In one dictionary, Webster's Online Dictionary The Rosetta Edition, one of the definitions of sex is "Activities associated with sexual intercourse". Sexual intercourse is defined as "The act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the man's penis is inserted into the woman's vagina and excited until orgasm and ejaculation occur." So.... Oral sex could be seen as intimacy, but not the act of sexual intercourse.
I posted that... Don't know why it says anonymous... Shannon
I think the problem is simply with terminology. If you believe that anything that results in orgasm is sex, then it's hard to dispute that oral sex isn't "sex".
If you think of "sex" as the act of procreation, whether you end up procreating or not (condom, bad swimmers, whatever) then oral sex ISN'T sex.
The problem with terminology is that no one calls it "Vaginal Sex" so as to make it stand out different from the term "sex". Oral and even anal are put right in front of sex when describing those acts, but there isn't really a way to define vaginal sex without saying that and sounding weird. :>
When someone says they had sex, others assume that means penetration of the vagina, not a blowjob or some anal spelunking.
Trying to say that oral sex is the same as regular sex, just on a different, lower, level doesn't work though. I've known people that preferred the sensations of oral sex over the standard in some situations. In that case, her argument would be "This is like saying that robbing a bank isn't stealing because you're not shoplifting".
What I'm meaning is that they're all different, even anal sex, and you can't just say that they're all the same thing because they involve ejaculation. While oral and even anal can be exciting, and perhaps for some even better than the standard, it is that vaginal penetration that our bodies were made for - we, like all other animals, are meant to reproduce.
The other aspects can be used as a foreplay or to reach climax, but that doesn't make them the same as what we are created to do.
There's also not that much wrong with letting kids think they're different, because then many will be drawn to have oral sex without popping any cherries until much later, when they're more mature and more able to handle the risks that vaginal sex can bring (like 14 year olds having children).
Fact is, if you have oral sex, you're having sex in the way described. If you have anal sex, you're having sex in the way that's described. But because of the terminology, we're supposed to assume that having sex could mean any of the three possibilities. So what are you supposed to say if you don't mean oral or anal? I believe that "sex" in and of itself works as an excellent term for vaginal penetration.
I also think that's the standard. That's what people assume when you say sex. Since you're in a different position for "sex" than you are for the others, penetrating a different place, then I do think that "sex" is as different from "oral sex" as oral is different from anal sex.
Now, all of them are intimate. All involve climax. All involve nudity and groping and sweating and what have you. But to me, "sex" is sex. Oral sex is oral sex. Anal sex is anal sex. Masturbation is masturbation. "Hand jobs" are "hand jobs" and what have you. You can't deny that they all lead to the same sort of resolution, but all of them are, in fact, different methods of reaching it.
As for kids that think getting a blowjob is more like kissing than it is sex, they'll figure it out. But if we try and say it's "sex" without giving what I take sex to be, then we're graying the whole area that should be black and white. There's three holes, people, and three different ways to get the job done.
If anyone knows a better term for vaginal penetration that sounds okay enough to use in the bedroom and isn't simply "sex", let me know. Use it in a sentence to see if it works. "Hey baby, wanna have _______?" (vaginal penetration? ugh. Vaginal Sex? Nonono, etc ;>)
"anal spelunking"
AJ, I love you, man...
Then is losing one's virginity only defined as vaginal intercourse, at least for women? Or the first time she engages in a sexual act, such as oral or anal sex?
Do you count "the first time we had sex" the first time there was a sex act, or the first time there was penetration?
Okay, let's say you're a young Christian woman who has decided not to have sex until marriage. Let's say you have an atheist boyfriend who doesn't agree with you, but who states that he respects your opinion. Let's then say that the atheist boyfriend proposes alternate acts. Are you breaking your promise to yourself and God to go ahead with the alternate acts?
Abstinence, to me, has come to mean refraining from physical intimacy until marriage. I think it's absolutely arguable that it originally only referred to vaginal penetration (and possibly anal, as in the Bible you will see mentions of men "having sex" with other men--it doesn't say "anally". Though this could just be a translation issue), so as to avoid problems such as pregnancy and STDs.
In the "olden days", there wasn't as much of an emphasis on love as there is nowadays. Now, we are flooded with admonitions to hold out for the right person, that sex should be "special". There are apparently some people who actually manage to do this--I recently read about a young man and woman who hadn't even kissed until their wedding day. (I seriously find this hard to believe...)
In the modern case, the case where love is paramount, I think you can absolutely argue that oral sex is anal sex is sex. Anything where you're naked and messing with the other person's jigglies is an extreme level of intimacy and vulnerability, and we have romanticized this. We want everything to be perfect. When a girl has sex with someone for the first time, you half expect her friends to ask her, "Do you love him?" Even for people who don't wait until marriage, there is still a pressure to wait--for love.
I'm actually not sure about the etymology of the word sex. I don't know if, in the past, it was used generally to refer to all acts in the bedroom. I also am not certain how recently the adjectives "oral" and "anal" came into play. It would be interesting to look into that.
Yes, I think you are breaking your promise. My belief is that God set those guidelines to protect us. And, speaking from experiance, once you stray into the gray, "Alternative methods" area, it isn't a far hop to crossing that "line". While pregnancy can be avoided with oral/anal methods, they do NOT prevent STDs. Any exchange/contact with bodily fluids has the possibility of leading to problems.
And that, my friends, is where the title of my post comes from.
If you try to take this the religious route, then oral sex and anal sex are sins and should never occur anyway. There's no point in trying to take it in that direction, as it absolutely destroys the argument.
It comes down to people, I suppose. Where one might be more willing to do sexual acts that do not involve vaginal penetration and still feel that they're "saving themselves", there are those others that wouldn't feel right going beyond kissing and light groping.
There are those that have gotten pregnant, aborted, and then felt terrible, and there are those that have simply had sex and then felt terrible.
It's going to vary, dependant on the person's conscience, of course.
If you "break your promise with God", as it were, by having oral sex, you're "sinning" if you want to look at it that way. The people that don't find oral sex to be a sin, surprisingly, are going to be the same people that don't think they're breaking their pact with God.
Abstinence refers to what *I* call sex. Vaginal penetration. Abstinence as a birth control doesn't make since if you're doin' the ol' red eye or smokin' a pipe. There's no birth control there, because there's no chance of creating a baby to begin with.
Heather, you mention that anything where you're naked and fondling is intimate. Very right. But intimate isn't sex. So back to my former post for that, and I'm not going to say it all over again.
As for the when the terms "oral" and "anal" came into play - I imagine it was a good time ago, but more importantly, you need to consider how recently oral and anal sex were permitted to be "acceptable" sex acts. Not so long ago, that was (as with the Bible calling such things a sin) unmentionably dirty and wrong.
I don't think that I'm arguing any spiritual point with what I'm saying. There may be two ways to skin a cat, but there's only one way to pop a cherry, eh Sam? ;>
Point is, you lose your virginity as a woman through intercourse. Therefore, it's only fair to say that a man loses it when he sticks it in a vagina (spare me the gay arguments, because that's just taking it off subject).
Really, I see a difference, whether anyone else does or not. They're all different.
As to anonymous, I remember the first time I had a blow job as the first time I had a blow job. I remember the first time I kissed a girl to be the first time I kissed a girl. I remember the first time I donkey punched some lady as the first time I donkey punched some lady.
As I've stated before, when I say SEX, I mean VAGINAL PENETRATION (again, that aint so hot in the bedroom to use on the ol' lady). All of the shit I mentioned above - all the "firsts" - they were all times I'd had intimacy, but not all times I'd had sex.
As for Shannon - you have something deeper to look at than breaking a promise to God. If you engage in sex acts other than straight-up missionary style, there are quite a few Christians out there that are going to call you as a sinner - not as losing your virginity, but as sinning besides.
Here's the big trick though. Why the fuck promise God to save yourself? I don't think that's right. Save yourself for someone you're going to spend the rest of your life with. Not for God. Do it with God, if that's what you want, but don't save yourself for God or for Jesus. Save yourself for that one that you (with the maturity of an adult) can decide is the right one. Whether you're "legally married" or simply living together for the rest of your life, it's your call when it's right. Because you aint gunna be guilty that you fucked that guy while God was watching. You'll be sad that you didn't give yourself to that one guy that makes your whole world shine.
Point is, terminology is fucked up now. Heather and I obviously disagree what "sex" is. Likewise, Shannon and I disagree what "Saving yourself" is all about. What it's going to boil down to, and I think my boy Sam is going to be with me on this one, is that each situation - each person - is going to have different ideas what's right and what's wrong. If you regret something you've one real bad, then I think you probably just crossed your "line". If you think that it was fine, then I think it was probably fine.
No matter what extracurricular crap I've done in my time with other women, I am proud that I saved myself for my wife. Maybe you guys will all think I didn't, but all that's going to matter to me is that I believe that I did.
Also, bear this in mind. So far as saving yourself goes, some people honestly don't give a shit about saving themsevles. They don't find it important. It isn't about God or the devil. It's about YOU and what YOU want, what YOU feel, what YOU think is right. If you do right by yourself, then you're going to be just fine.
But to fucking hell with some bitch trying to tell me what oral sex is. (your original post, before I ruffle feathers here) That's the beef I have with psychologists and all their INFTP bullshit. I'm tired of people trying to group ideals, ways of thinking, and what have you. Murder is murder, but for heaven's sake, there are going to be some things that aren't the same for everyone.
If that wasn't the case, why the fuck would anyone abort their children? If that was the case, then why would anyone sanction the death penalty? If that was the case, why would we have wars, why would we have competitive job markets, why would we have porn sites devoted to Water Sports (or, HEY BABY PISS ALL OVER ME) and scat porn (no definition needed?).
You guys decide what you want to believe, and from that, decide if you saved yourself or not. The enlightenment isn't learning what other people think is right, it's finding out what's right for you.
Wait, so who is the person referred to in the original post, who you used to know, who doesn't think oral sex is actually sex? It seems that was the original intent of the post, not the ensuing debate.
I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment, AJ.
So if that Christian girl believes that all acts of intimacy are wrong before marriage, then she should listen to her heart and not to the "logic" of her atheist boyfriend. And if that Christian girl goes ahead and does it and then looks back on it and thinks, "Eh, that's not really a big deal," then hey, maybe it's not really a big deal...but you know, the point is that she should make the decision herself and not be coerced.
I think Prudie's point was that, to a girl, intimacy is sex. I think that is reality for the majority of women. If a woman lets someone see her naked, or touch her body, it means quite a deal to her. The first time doing anything is going to have a powerful impact on a woman. I'm pretty sure that's why Prudie said that "oral sex is sex". Because regardless of what the actual act is, that first time is going to change her life. (Prudie is speaking in reference to a high school girl's first sexual experience, if you didn't follow the link.)
I didn't realize my rather glib post was going to bring out such an interesting debate, but I'm glad it did. Sex is a pretty interesting topic, but conversations like this don't happen too often ;>
Anonymous, that would be my ex-boyfriend, who was an atheist.
;>
still resent the ex you lost your virginity to? lots of girls do
LOL, no :) I lost my virginity to my husband, though we weren't married at the time. (Sorry, Mom.)
I don't resent my ex, or anything about that relationship. I was trying to be cute there. Obviously I failed, to provoke such an attack!
I'm reading over all this, and am confused. So, you believe you had sex with this ex-boyfriend who told you it wasn't sex, whatever you did, but yet you didn't lose your virginity? How do you actually have sex but keep your virginity? I agree there are other sexual acts, but when asked "did you give him your virginity?" you say no, then it obviously wasn't sex.
Has anyone asked him whether it was sex? Maybe he thinks it was too.
My work here is done ;D
Mr. Anonymous is agreeing with me. It's not "sex" sex if you don't lose your virginity. Bam.
And Heather seconded it. By saying that she didn't lose her viriginity until she met Sean. Therefore, Heather also understands that "sex" is the act of vaginal intercourse, wherein one plants his stiff bishop into a woman's quivering love purse.
Now MY work here is done. ;D
hahaha :D
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