How could he do that?
How could he make that offer, knowing what it would mean, without even asking her first?
And then, "I could have a baby!" he says, the insensitive prat.
The above is my initial, visceral reaction. I'm letting my rational side out to evaluate, but so far it's not changing my opinion. He can't have a baby with his wife, so he jumps at the chance to have one with someone else. He's so eager to pass down his own genetic material that it doesn't matter if it's with the woman he's married to, or with an acquaintance.
Do you understand the reason I want to be able to conceive? Yes, it's so I can have my own baby, a child that is a part of me. This is why I am not interested in egg donation, because what's the point if it's a baby that is part Sean, part someone else, and not at all me?
Ruth's post made me ask myself a difficult question. If it wasn't my problem...if it was Sean who made it impossible for us to have a baby...would I jump at the chance to conceive another man's child? Would I look for a sperm donor?
And all I can answer myself is this: What would be the point?
What is a child, but the product of the love of its parents? If I am to be the mother and Sean is to be the father, then I should be the mother genetically and he should be the father genetically...or neither of us should be. Why, why, why go through an artificial process so I can carry a child that only belongs to one of us?
If I am to carry a child someday, I want it to be ours. If we are to be parents otherwise, I want it to be a child that already exists, not a child that I have to concoct in a laboratory with other people's parts.
Monday, August 8, 2005
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12 comments:
mmm. just stumbled accross your reference to my blog on technorati and feel compelled to respond. I tried to find a way to mail you but couldn't.
'Insensitive prat' is an interesting way to describe my deeply sensitive husband! Without the agression towards us, yours are interesting questions; ones we still have not answered after losing a child and three years of IVF and ones I profoundly hope you will not have to face.
If a friend had offered to donate an egg when I was young enough, I would have been thrilled. Egg donation is expensive, scary, alienating and time consuming. Numerous examples exist where people have felt safer with a friend as a donor, and have valued the continuing relationship as one like a god-parent....It's a risk, but so is having your own child and becoming a parent.
We have discussed this with the couple. We continue to. They are very touched. We may or not proceed. It is entirely up to them. The offer is oout there.
Of course J would not think it were 'his' child. He is, however allowed HIS irrational moments too.
Everyone is different. We all have difficult choices to make, but one thing is clear to me after, like you, wanting a child of my own, meeting my husband late in life and then 6 years of coping with infertility: One's child is never one's own. It passes through you and into the world. Check Kahlil Gibran for the right wording.
You are welcome to contact me if you want to discuss this further. However, surely there are more harmonious uses for the web than to call someone whom you do not know,have never met, an insensitive prat and then link to him. It seems a little harsh.
Hi, Ruth.
Sorry about how well hidden my email address is. It's not really listed anywhere on the blog, but it is hiding over on my main site. I'm planning to add an email form at some point, but I haven't worked on it yet.
Yeah, there are more constructive ways to use the Web. This post was written in a flash of great anger and (I assumed) empathy, and it remains a signpost of my emotions at the time of its writing.
I'm not actually sure where I got the word "prat", since I'm not even British, but I certainly wouldn't call your husband that now. I'm in a new marriage myself, so I know that we don't always do and say the right things.
At the time of writing I was mad, which is of course no excuse for being rude. I knew what I was doing when I left that part in my post. I didn't think there was any other way to express how deeply I was hurt by what I'd read (and how it related to my own situation) than to let my first gut reaction, however foolish, stand...even if it made me look like a jerk.
As I have a policy of not depublishing myself, it will remain, tempered of course by these far more rational comments.
You're right in saying that one's child is never one's own. I've sort of been coming to realize that myself. I've also started to wonder if I would even be a good mother.
I think I'm finally starting to heal, if only a little bit.
In any case, the important thing is this: I apologize for expressing my feelings with a public insult, one that has no justification whatsoever.
Hi Heather,
Thanks for the apology.
I realise that your anger at the time was connected to what you were going through in your own life. I have no idea what it was -except presumably it was related to your being in a new marriage now - but it still seems to bear little relation to what we were honestly and straightforwardly contemplating.
You can email me from my site if you want. I am actually quite interested in what you found, and obviously still do find, so enraging. You mention empathy...? Was it towards me? If so let le assure you that in order to maintain the anonymity of our friends the post is partly fiction, and actually this was a private discussion between the two of us which was very moving, hard work and ultimately shifted us forward in our own grieving process. I guess a public offer without asking me could have been worthy of discomfort, now I think about it.
I would say don't always believe what you read on the web and try not to be so quick to judge it!
Just for interest, some of my thoughts on blogging - Debate is always interesting but I, personally, do not believe it should be harmful to others. I TRY to maintain this basic principle in my writing. If I feel I have crossed it I go back and edit it. Often months later. I also ask friends and colleagues to point it out to me if I have missed something. I don't believe in putting, or leaving harmful things out there, though of course I have my angry flashes and write plenty of mad and hurtful stuff just to get it out. Then I delete it. I also use alot of poetic licence mostly in order to protect identities, but also to baby step into fiction and tell a fuller tale. The thing that concerns me are not the details but the heart of the matter.
I sincerely hope your new marriage brings you much joy, and of course, children.
I did try to email you using the address listed on your website, but the email bounced back to me.
Your thoughts on writing and privacy are interesting. I've always been very straightforward, and that has caused me some problems, as I've mentioned elsewhere.
What I was--and still am--going through is my own infertility, caused by chemotherapy. I had cancer for six months or so in 1997 and 1998.
Heather,
It's interesting what you say in your post about the 'privacy' of a web-journal as opposed to journalism:
For me a journal is private which, by it's very nature, the web never can be. Though I still write in a 'journal' to get things out of my system, express myself and work out feelings, I would never want anyone to read it for that reason. You obviously have a lot to say. Could you do it whilst conscious of other people's feelings? Again, personally speaking, one of the differences I love in blogging is trying to work out my feelings (which are of course as ugly as the next guys)to such a degree that they can become transformed into an interesting debate or hopefully even a thing of beauty or humour. That's of course up to my readers to judge. I can only put it out there.
Just thoughts.
More importantly, I am so sorry for your cancer. Well, glad that you made it through, but sorry for the obviously painful side effects.
All I can say at this point is that there ARE other avenues. I have seen so so many love stories with children who are not biological. For us, we made a choice to stop after 4 years in our early forties. It was personal and it had to do with accepting that maybe we had another fate, letting go of control, opening to the mystery which would, in time, unfold. Julian has always said, right since losing the first baby that it is us he wants over and above everything else. In many ways we are closer because of it all.
I wish you much luck on your path, wherever it should take you.
If you want to mail I am on
ruth@wintermane.com
xx
Okay, this is getting stupid.
Ruth, defending your husband is fine and good, but you need to take into account that all Heather had to go by was your journal entry. I didn't notice it saying too much about how wonderful he is.
You should have ended it there, because then you wouldn't look so arrogant.
See, you come along next and suggest finding more "harmonious uses" for the Internet, which is your typical hippie crap, but I suppose that's to be expected. People who feel like they've been insulted are usually the ones that suggest being nice.
But after this, your defense starts getting pretty weak. Heather gave you more than enough apology for what was said, and even went so far as to clear up what had caused her to say it.
That, too, could have been the end of it. But no, then you come back, and for some reason you're suddenly interested in what made her so mad. Why couldn't you just accept the apology and be done with it? I suppose you could be so sympathetic to those you don't know that you truly wanted to help her through her problems, but I have a feeling it has more to do with your vanity that you wanted to delve back into it.
But just ignore that. Why you wanted to doesn't matter. Maybe you just didn't feel like she'd clarified enough of her own life for you in her overdone apology. But really, does that matter? She said it, she apologized, end of story.
Well, then you go on to try to better describe your situation, and then point out that some of the post she responded so "angrily" to was fictitious. Now, I don't know how much of it is, and let me spare your fingers, I couldn't care less how much of it is. But it's another point against you, whether you see it or not.
Then you add in your "Just for interest" thoughts on blogging. Which is terrific. But it doesn't look like it was a casual step from the debate into that, it looks quite like you're reprimanding Heather, or trying to enlighten her to The Way Things Should Be Done.
Okay. Where are we so far? You publicly posted a situation involving your husband. Heather made a comment about it on her own blog that you later found and decided it offended you. You called her out on it, and she apologized. Then you went on to offer to hear what had upset her, and then through in your own neat little ideas on how webjournaling should be done. Let's continue.
So now Heather goes ahead and tells you why the child thing hits so close to home, which fits right alongside the situation you were posting about when all this started. She also comes back just a bit with her own ideas of how journals work online.
Then the ball's back in your court, and what happens now? "For me a journal is private, which by it's very nature, the web never can be." No kidding. Which is why if you want to post a personal situation to your blog, you seriously can't expect all readers across the globe to join you in a lovefest over it. By posting it up there, you're opening yourself up for the good and the bad.
Then you come back in here with all your "cant u b nice 2 peepz" and "beuty iz cool"
You think its up to your readers to judge your blog and discover if it's become something "beautiful or humorous." Well, it's also fair for some people to get outright pissed at what you write. You said you only put it out there, and that's the truth. You put it out there. Anything that comes of you putting it out there is your own fault for (you guessed it) putting it out there.
Let's sum up where you stand.
The original post that started this all may well have been considered a work of fiction, considering the fictitious elements within it. Heather responded in her own space, to her own readers, to say what she had to about it. You came over here upset that someone out there might not like something you have to say, or something your husband might have offered, and then have the gall to whine about the name she chose for your "caring, wonderful, perfect, sperm-donating" husband. It works. She apologizes. You pursue, giving off your sage advice as if its a sought after thing. So she extrapolates her situation, in an attempt to help you better understand. This, of course, is answered with more of your thoughts of journals and blogs and feelings and emotions and beauty. All the while ignoring the fact that if YOU POST IT UP HERE ANYONE AND EVERYONE CAN SEE IT AND READ IT AND MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS WHAT TO TAKE AWAY FROM IT. That's life, babydoll, and you might as well get used to it.
You want to offer Heather advice on posting in her blog and "how 2 use da intranet", here's some advice for you. Get a tougher skin, grow some balls, or make your blog private so you don't have to worry about terrible people saying horrible things about something that you wrote.
I wish you much luck on your path, wherever it should take you.
-AJ
thanks i love you too. THE END
oops that's exactly the kind of comment I would edit if it were my blog but it's not so I can't. It was late. I'd had too much wine and we'd just had a row. AJ's attack here didn't help my mood and I had no idea you'd linked back to it. Anyway, looks like we've thrashed this one to death, eh?
Yes, I suppose we're at a stopping point. Just two final things:
First, if someone asks me to delete a comment they've made, I'm happy to do that. I don't own other people's words. I just won't delete my own.
Second, I wanted to say that I love your writing, and I love your husband's painting, and I'll continue to keep you both in my blogroll, unless you're uncomfortable with that.
Aint it sad? Life without a delete button. Wow, that sounds so crazy. Kind of crazy when you say something because of wine or a "row" or because of your current feelings at that time.
Would suck if someone came after you because of that one, undeletable, emotional comment, eh?
Especially if they heaped on the whole LET US ALL LOVE AND NOT WAR commentary. Would suck for sure, because you aren't a bad person. You just responded to something based upon your mood.
You weren't asking for a tutoring in how to type or how to talk. You weren't looking for advice on how to live - you simply responded to something you saw. And people should understand that you'd just had a "row" and been into the wine, elsewise you'd have NEVER SAID IT, right? Right.
Thanks for proving my point all over again, especially since you decided to do it from an entirely different perspective.
AJ, I had to giggle at this. What is YOUR blog address so I can go over and check you out?
Shall we let it go now?
(Thank you Heather, as, after all, this is between you and I. Neither one of is perfect and I appreciate your being able to see the bigger picture and your continuing support. As I said, and I meant it, I wish you all the best.)
LOL!
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